Customer Reviews:
Oligarch.......2007-09-04
Nearly all those who studied Greek in high school were given a much distorted image of the Athenian (and certainly of the pedophilic Spartan) society. Who told us that the wealth of Athens was based on silver mines (the university city of Ioanina is still one of the world's biggest centers of the silver industry)? And who told us why Socrates was forced to commit suicide?
One can find the answers on many questions about Greek society in Xenophon's works, the clever writer of `Hellenika' (`All Persians are educated to become a slave, except one').
In his works about Socrates, Xenophon brushes a lively picture of the `real' Socrates and explains clearly his political views: 'Where offices were filled by men who satisfied the legal requirements, he considered the constitution to be an aristocracy; where they were filled in accordance with a property qualification, a plutocracy; where they were filled by anybody, a democracy.'
Socrates was an anti-democrat and defended oligarchy is his teachings.
What oligarchy really meant for the majority of the Athenians, one can also read in `Hellenika'. Describing the reign of the Thirty (comprising two uncles of Plato), Xenophon states: `The oligarchs went on a killing spree murdering all democratic opponents, more Athenians than all the Peloponnesians did in ten years of war ... when people could vote, it was in full view.'
Xenophon explains one of the main reasons for oligarchic rule in his rhetoric question: `if people uses its superior power to enact measures against the propertied classes, will that be violence rather than law?'
Socrates was a moderate anti-democrat, not as his pupil Plato who fulminated relentlessly against the democratic beast (Gerard Koolschijn). He respected the law: `He disobeyed the illegal orders of the Thirty on the ground that what he was ordered to do was illegal.'
He also was a moderate in his personal life (`to need nothing is divine').
Xenophon's works are key texts for understanding the ancient Greek society (daily life, morals, social issues, drink-parties, sex, politics). They are a must read for all those interested in human history and for all lovers of classical texts.
Against the government-clique of President Perikles ..........2005-07-26
Perikles pushed Athens into risky power politics, those led into the Peloponnesi war (431-404 before Chr.). The second woman of Perikles, Aspasia, participated in the philosophical discussions of Socrates and became highly estimated by him. She was accused like Sokrates of being not as religious as they should be. Of course the boring-questioner Socrates became a feedback not only ironically (e.g. by the comedy poet Aristophanes) but also others with heavy rage: started by the government clique around President Perikles. To awaken the people from their sleep of propaganda-smeared opinions, - this had to provoke counter actions. In his defense speech at court Socrates didn't own much time. The limit was set by a pot of water, having a whole. The moment, all the water had run out, that was the very moment he had to stop his speech. The jury of 500 Athenians didn't like to listen at all - and they were happy, to bring that thing quickly to an end. The three prosecutors of Socrates by the way had been lynched a few weeks later. Probably the thoughts become accepted to which Socrates had wanted to inflame: "... perhaps you might possibly be offended, like the sleeping who are awakened, striking me, you might easily kill, then the rest of your lives you might continue sleeping..." - Socrates maintained his integrity as hero until the end. His radical critique of the Athenians fundamental values is the starting point of western philosophy, of the modern debate over civil disobedience (compare Henry David Thoreau, Martin Luther King Jr., Jane Fonda and so on...). Today it's still amusing to follow the way, how the master shredded the weaknesses in faulty arguments. Socrates had tried to make publicly, what later should be named as "try-and-error procedures of thinking". And he didn't allow the mighty ones to intimidate him. There are cultural fluctuations with regard to the allowance to think opposite. Jesus or Spartacus (or the American Socrates-scientist Vlastos, notified by the FBI and threatened with deportation to Canada because he didn't agree to the VietNam-war), Angela Davis, Sinead o'Connor or Michael Moore - they had their special versions of trouble. Today we don't need a death-sentence, there are smaller and more effective tricks, to produce a YES to nearly everything. So we still need such a hero of dissidence like Socrates - or should we stop thinking self-confidently? Nearly 500 years before Christ this Socrates gave an unforgettable sign of a solid character. He didn't beg the judge committee, to stop the death penalty, he didn't agree to accept exile - in the contrary he made a request for the highest honor in Athens at that time: the daily free meal-supply in the city hall. He was an ironic man and he knew, this request had been a little too much for the nervous jury ...
Against the government-clique of President Perikles ..........2005-07-26
Perikles pushed Athens into risky power politics, those led into the Peloponnesi war (431-404 before Chr.). The second woman of Perikles, Aspasia, participated in the philosophical discussions of Socrates and became highly estimated by him. She was accused like Sokrates of being not as religious as they should be. Of course the boring-questioner Socrates became a feedback not only ironically (e.g. by the comedy poet Aristophanes) but also others with heavy rage: started by the government clique around President Perikles. To awaken the people from their sleep of propaganda-smeared opinions, - this had to provoke counter actions. In his defense speech at court Socrates didn't own much time. The limit was set by a pot of water, having a whole. The moment, all the water had run out, that was the very moment he had to stop his speech. The jury of 500 Athenians didn't like to listen at all - and they were happy, to bring that thing quickly to an end. The three prosecutors of Socrates by the way had been lynched a few weeks later. Probably the thoughts become accepted to which Socrates had wanted to inflame: "... perhaps you might possibly be offended, like the sleeping who are awakened, striking me, you might easily kill, then the rest of your lives you might continue sleeping..." - Socrates maintained his integrity as hero until the end. His radical critique of the Athenians fundamental values is the starting point of western philosophy, of the modern debate over civil disobedience (compare Henry David Thoreau, Martin Luther King Jr., Jane Fonda and so on...). Today it's still amusing to follow the way, how the master shredded the weaknesses in faulty arguments. Socrates had tried to make publicly, what later should be named as "try-and-error procedures of thinking". And he didn't allow the mighty ones to intimidate him. There are cultural fluctuations with regard to the allowance to think opposite. Jesus or Spartacus (or the American Socrates-scientist Vlastos, notified by the FBI and threatened with deportation to Canada because he didn't agree to the VietNam-war), Angela Davis, Sinead o'Connor or Michael Moore - they had their special versions of trouble. Today we don't need a death-sentence, there are smaller and more effective tricks, to produce a YES to nearly everything. So we still need such a hero of dissidence like Socrates - or should we stop thinking self-confidently? Nearly 500 years before Christ this Socrates gave an unforgettable sign of a solid character. He didn't beg the judge committee, to stop the death penalty, he didn't agree to accept exile - in the contrary he made a request for the highest honor in Athens at that time: the daily free meal-supply in the city hall. He was an ironic man and he knew, this request had been a little too much for the nervous jury ...
A Revelation.......2004-06-28
Very few extant works remain on the life of Socrates: mainly the works of Xenophon and Plato. In "Conversations of Socrates" Xenophon writes extensively on the philosophical thought of the master in a forthright and simple manner. Xenophon has not always been praised for his writing style but he covers the Socratic principles thoroughly. The subjects aren't organized particularly well with examples of Socrates' views on certain virtues scattered throughout the text. Nevertheless, since Socrates didn't write his own thoughts we are very fortunate that we have these works.
Xenophon divided his works into four books: Socrates' Defense; Memoirs of Socrates; the Dinner-Party; and the Estate-Manager. Xenophon writes in the second and third person so that we "hear" the Socratic Method throughout the text. We see how Socrates used questions of his followers to teach them to think. His method thoroughly flushed out the truth and often revealed the flaws in the arguments his opponents and followers made.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading Xenophon. One could almost imagine being right there with the master as he shredded the weaknesses in faulty arguments and uncovered hidden truths. His opinions on virtues may be dated to Twentieth Century people but one must remember that it was largely his teachings that had such a great influence on Western thought and ideas.
Underrated.......2004-06-25
While not as competent a writer as Plato, Xenophon's 'Socrates' is the historically more accurate (I refer to the chapter of Memoirs in this book.)The Dinner-Party was my favorite dialogue, there are also several brilliant vignettes throughout the memoir chapter. This is not to say that it doesn't 'drag' in parts, it does. The Estate-Manager, which is the last dialogue, terribly weighs down this volume; there Socrates is more a bystander than participant.
But I give this 5 stars, as its an indespensible volume for the Socratic enthusiast.
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- Everymans banquet
- The place to start
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The Dialogues of Plato, Volume 2: The Symposium (The Dialogues of Plato)
Plato
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Customer Reviews:
Everymans banquet.......2006-12-06
Plato's Symposium is, at least in my opinion, one of the best works of the Western philosophical school.
Like most of his dialogs, it reads like a novel but packs more challeges than a small encyclopedia;unless you have a vey advanced education in philo ( and perhaps even then) you will benefit from the comentaries of an expert, which is exactly what you get here.
I found the exerxise more enjoyable if you read the original for a bit and then go and review what prof R. E. Allen has to say, then reflect upon it a bit and then carry on to the end of the next section and start all over agin.
After you finish you will want to read the original again, non stop, and have a great experience all over again.
This is a great translation with inteligent comentaries, a most for anyone interested in Plato and the Socratic lore.
The place to start.......2000-03-22
This was the first book I read on Symposium, and I was glad. Later when I wanted to know more I moved on to Rosen and Dover, but if all you want to do is read the Symposium with a commentary, this is the place to start. Allen gives you just enough detail to be enlightening, without swamping you. If you want to be swamped, read Rosen (not that being swamped is necessarily a bad thing). If you want to be entertained, read Allen.
Book Description
"It is a wonder and a delight to be led by Eva Brann through the Socratic conversations. She begins from first impressions and moves through perplexity to clarity, without losing the thread. Those who do not know the Republic will be initiated into its treasures. Those who believe that it is a great book will understand better what they already know."-Ann Hartle, Emory University
Customer Reviews:
An extradordinary book.......2006-02-21
Anyone will benefit from reading the dialogues of Plato. Eva Brann has read them for nearly fifty years, and her reading of them has profited from two centuries of classical scholarship. She has mastered not only the nuances of the dialogues she has studied for half a century, but also all the related texts now available thanks to those two centuries of scholarship. Without pedantry, condescension, or jargon, her book generously pours this wealth of intellectual experience into the lap of anyone who can read high-school English.
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of Ms. Brann's writing is how often her sentences end with question marks. As authoritative as they are, her commentaries always expand, and never restrict, the texts she discusses. Commentaries on Plato often give lip-service to the notion that the present-day reader is expected to "participate" in the conversation. Ms. Brann's essays not only make crystal clear the necessity of this participation; they also enable (and inspire) the reader to embark on this arduous but necessay path.
Book Description
This book offers a new interpretation of Plato's early and middle dialogues as the expression of a unified philosophical vision. Whereas the traditional view sees the dialogues as marking successive stages in Plato's philosophical development, we may more legitimately read them as reflecting an artistic plan for the gradual, indirect and partial exposition of Platonic philosophy. The magnificent literary achievement of the dialogues can be fully appreciated only from the viewpoint of a unitarian reading of the philosophical content.
Customer Reviews:
What do I know? I think this book is original........2002-03-04
... I'm not finished with Kahn's book, but I find the central thesis fascinating. I had not considered it before. Almost everyone seems to believe that Plato's philosophy developed over time. It seems possible to construct a time line of dialogues with the "early" ones representing Socrates more than the later ones.
Who before Kahn has ever suggested an "ingressive" approach, where Plato's philosphy is fully-formed, but only revealed in pieces? Perhaps others, I do not know. But I think the model Kahn suggests opens up a whole line of thinking about Plato. So Plato didn't discuss "recollection" in the Meno without having the fully fledged idea of Forms in mind. I've always had the impression that scholars were saying that Plato's doctrine of "recollection" was the most advanced position he had at that time, as if "Forms" hadn't occured to him yet.
Anyway, I like where Kahn is going. He may not be expressing the "common opinion," but he is correct to tie the literary qualities in with the philosophy. ... I could be wrong.
"...I'd always thought of you as quick.".......2001-07-02
I had written a lengthy review of this work but, since it has never appeared on this site, I will attempt to reprise it in a more condensed version. Charles Kahn is a highly respected scholar of ancient philosophy at the University of Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, this book does him no credit and actually calls into question his very ability to read Plato. Put as broadly as possible, Kahn sees the platonic corpus as an attempt by Plato to gradually educate his readers in his doctrines. The progress he traces is from the "earliest" works (eg. the Apology) to the Republic, which he regards as the fullest revelation of Plato's teachings. To that end he proceeds to ransack every dialogue within this period for indications of a "developmental" approach by Plato. Differences between dialogues are papered over or fobbed off on the vague assertion that Plato wasn't engaged in a coherent discussion of the topic-in-question at this point in his writings because he didn't believe that his readership could understand it. Essentially Kahn has inverted the usual "developmental" approach to Plato (ala Gregory Vlastos) by assuming that Plato's writings evolved while his philosophy did not. While this assumption is preferable it does not aid Kahn in his interpretation.
This book is a classic example of a scholar letting his critical apparatus (and prejudices) get in the way of the necessary task of sustained, careful exegesis. Kahn has absolutely no "feel" for the "literary" elements of the dialogues and he cannot give any reasons for the fact that Socrates's discussions are different when he is speaking with different interlocutors. Kahn ignores very important details for the sake of his pet thesis and it is invariably those details which disprove Kahn's readings. Why does Diotima lecture Socrates about eros in the "Symposium" but it is Socrates who does the lecturing in the "Phaedrus?" Kahn is incapable of asking or answering this question. Plato was a writer of considerable comedic talents but Kahn pays little or no attention to this. He is also enamored of making embarassing statements about Plato being a "mystic" and a "metaphysician" who is not interested in the everyday world. As Kahn never defines what a "mystic" would be it is very difficult to know whether he is referring to Madame Blavatsky or Plotinus. In addition, Plato's consistent engagement with politics and its relationship to philosophy disproves such assertions. Furthermore, Kahn's dismissal of Xenophon as "unphilosophical" raises the question of whether the ivy-league professor is being careless or just incompetent. Recent work on Xenophon has revealed a thinker of subtle complexity who was well regarded by men such as Cicero, Machiavelli, and Sir Philip Sidney. Kahn's inability to understand Xenophon is one in a series of grave flaws which capsize this work. Put as baldly as possible, this is a bad book--perhaps the worst I have read in several years--which should never have been published. The hypothesis is absurd and the analysis very shoddy. What other readers seem to interpret as "boldness" is really just zealous belief in a questionable interpretation (ie. monomania). Plato is far too subtle a thinker and writer for Kahn to grasp so the professor decided to construct an effigy of Plato which he then sets alight, believing that it is the real thing. Avoid this work at all costs and, instead, spend your money on Sayre's "Plato's Literary Garden" or Sallis's "Being and Logos" where you will be treated to a wonderfully complex discussion about the ancient sage and his writings.
Controversial and Challenging.......2000-11-19
This is one of the best books on Plato that I have read. Kahn's thesis--that Plato's early and middle dialogues present a unified philosophical vision that is gradually revealed from dialogue to dialogue (what Kahn calls the "ingressive method")--is a new twist on the unitarian thesis that the Platonic corpus gives no evidence for the sort of philosophical development that has been spotted by interpreters such as Grote, Campbell, Vlastos, Owen, and many others (probably most others, in fact). But even if one is a developmentalist at heart, one can benefit greatly from reading this book. The approach is both philosophical and scholarly, of use both to the philosopher and to the classicist. Even when it is difficult to agree with Kahn (for example, he holds that the Gorgias is an earlier work than the Protagoras, in spite of what appears to be a more complex moral psychology and a more sensitive treatment of the hedonist thesis in the former), grappling with his arguments can be both a challenge and a thrill. Rarely does disagreement serve to educate so well.
It is disappointing, though fully understandable, that this book does not treat the late dialogues. There are hints here and there that Kahn thinks he could extend his thesis further, but his treatment of the Pheadrus in the last chapter is more promisory than productive.
Hubris to the max.......2000-01-11
When the first empirical experiments confirmed Einstein's theory of relativity, story has it he was unphased. "If it had been otherwise" he is quoted as saying, "I'd feel sorry for God." If Kahn's interpretation of Plato is not correct, I feel sorry for Plato. To hear Kahn tell it, Plato is a great genius who did not, as modern scholarly orthodoxy holds, develope his point of view over time, but rather developes his reader over time to accept his ideas. Kahn believes that the decisive influence on Plato's life (other than, of course, Socrates) was the coup of the Thirty. These aristocrats overturned the Athenian democracy and, instead of ruling nobly, showed Plato how depraved and stupid obligarchy can be. The worst of these revolutionaries were Plato's brother and cousin. The only is bright spot was Socrates' brave stand against the tyrants only to get it in the neck once democracy was restored. The problem was that the ancient Greek religion was an aristocratic, heroic religion (see Homer) which encouraged the aristocrats to behave like barbarians. What Plato was trying to do was introduce a new religion (philosophy) which would civilize the aristocracy. To prove his point, Kahn must progress from Ion and Hippias Minor, through Gorgias (where he states his question fully) to the aporetic dialogues (Lysis, Meno, Charmnides) to the Protagoras (the most problematic of the dialogues to fit into his theory)and finally to goal the great middle dialogues (Symposium, Phaedo and Republic). It's quite a ride.but if you can hold on, well worth it.
Plato's single literary project.......1999-12-27
I do not believe I can capture the sheer audacity and interpretive hubris of this book so I quote the author: "The anonymity of the dialogue form, together with Plato's problematic irony in the presentation of Socrates, makes it impossible for us to see through these dramatic works in such a way as to read the mind of their author. To suppose that one can treat these dialogues as a direct statement of the author's opinion is what I call the fallacy of transparency, the failure to take account of the doctrinal opacity of these literary texts. What we can and must attempt to discern, however, is the artistic intention with which they were composed. For in this sense the intention of the author is inscribed in the text. It is precisely this intention that my exegesis is designed to capture, by construing the seven threshold dialogues together with Symposium and Phaedo as a single complex literary enterprise culminating with the Republic. And that means to see this whole group of dialogues as the multi-faceted expression of a single philosophical view." (page 42)
Most scholars understand Plato's dialogues in terms of philosophical stages, that is to say, Plato had an early period, when his thought was dominated by Socrates, later came the middle period, culminating in the Republic, when he came, more and more to express his own ideas, and finally a period where he turns against Socrates entirely. But Kahn wants to know what if Plato had the plan of the dialogues mapped out in advance. What if he was critical of Socrates from the beginning? What if Socrates is not his spokesman, but an object of his criticism? Certainly, if Kahn's interpretation stands up, he has Occam's razor on his side. If Plato's dialogues break down into three groups on stylistic grounds, does that justify the assumption on that basis, the three groups date from differing periods, when Plato held differing points of view? Or are we better served to believe that these grouping constitute a literary device intentionally employed by Plato to advance a single, unchanging program? Moreover, how do we know Plato preserves the historical Socrates in his writing, or is even interested in doing so? My training is in biblical studies so I am glad to hear someone asking the same questions about the dialogues of Plato that have been commonplaces in relation to the Gospels for over a century? Are we to assume that because Socrates never performed miracles that that justifies shoddy scholarship? Certainly, from the perspective of Biblical scholars, who have been disavows the biographical nature of the Gospels for decades, reading books like Gregory Vlatos Socrates, Ironist and Moral philosopher gives one the impression that it was written in another century. And it was written (or at least published) in this decade.
This is serious scholarship. If such things intimidate you, you are better off leaving this one alone. If you enjoy such things, this is a treat.
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Acastos: Two Platonic Dialogues
Iris Murdoch
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Acastos: Two Platonic Dialogues
Iris Murdoch
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Agora, Academy, and the Conduct of Philosophy (Philosophical Studies Series)
D. Nails
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Book Description
Agora, Academy, and the Conduct of Philosophy offers extremely careful and detailed criticisms of some of the most important assumptions scholars have brought to bear in beginning the process of (Platonic) interpretation. It goes on to offer a new way to group the dialogues, based on important facts in the lives and philosophical practices of Socrates - the main speaker in most of Plato's dialogues - and of Plato himself. Both sides of Debra Nails's arguments deserve close attention: the negative side, which exposes a great deal of diversity in a field that often claims to have achieved a consensus; and the positive side, which insists that we must attend to what we know of these philosophers' lives and practices, if we are to make a serious attempt to understand why Plato wrote the way he did, and why his writings seem to depict different philosophies and even different approaches to philosophizing.
From the
Preface by Nicholas D. Smith.
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Conversations With Socrates
George Hammond
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Conversations With Socrates is set in the Isles of the Blest, where shortly after his death Plato searches for Socrates to rediscuss the issues that inspired their intellectual endeavors on Earth. Along with an Orphic priest, a young mother and her son, Socrates and Plato discuss the nature of virtue, happiness, justice, the absolute, love, the soul, education and idealism.
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